Archive:Illogicopedia/User talk:KyleH

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This page is an archive. The original page Wikia:c:Illogicopedia:User talk:KyleH may have since been updated or removed. This content is licensed under GFDL and was last retrieved on November 2008.

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1. If you would like to make edits to the wiki, please don't use this one because we're moving.
2. All of the community is migrating, not just some. Please don't mislead our users, we're having a tough enough time as it is. As such, your edits to the sitenotice and news templates are vandalism and I will let you off this time but next time you may not be so lucky. --  Hindleyak  Converse • ?blog • Click here! 14:02, 12 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have a number of things to say/ask

1. Why did you desysop an esteemed user of this wiki who has done absolutely nothing wrong? I believe you are in no position to do this as you are not a member of this community and as such have absolutely no say in what goes on here. Please explain.
2. The Illogiblog. All posts there are meant to be tongue in cheek, however I do stand by each and every one of the misgivings about Wikia stated: this, however, is personal opinion. People can make up their own minds about Wikia and to be honest, I hardly needed to 'drum up' support from a community already highly irritated by Wikia Bureaucracy. I am also slightly annoyed that you have access to an email which I sent in confidence to Angela.
3. The refusal to give answers on IRC is highly annoying and 'Wikia drone'-ish. Your robotic and cookie-cut (to borrow Seppy's phrase) responses further my view that the highly commercialised, money-driven farm you represent do not care about its communities. In wiki communities, capitalism can surely only be a bad thing.

I have many more things to say but I am slightly too cheesed off to say them right now. I thank you for your time. --  Hindleyak  Converse • ?blog • Click here! 19:46, 12 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing the conversation here.

Regarding point 1, you have made it clear that the community has left this wiki. That is your perogative; however, either the community left or it didn't--you can't have it both ways. If the community remains and wishes to continue making constructive edits to the wiki here, then I will be happy to consult the community members before making any changes. If, however, the community left or is leaving Wikia, then I will act in what I believe is in the best interest of the wiki here. Testostereich made an edit to the site notice which I did not believe was in the best interest of the wiki here, so I reverted the change and removed his ability to change the site notice again.

Regarding points 2&3, what you said on your blog and in your email to Angela is of no real consequence here. I only mentioned it to illustrate why it is important for the discussions to be as open and transparent as possible. I insisted that the discussion take place here on the wiki because it allows everyone to monitor and participate in the discussion rather than simply the people who happened to be in the IRC channel at a given time.

I hope that answers some of your questions. I'll be happy to answer any other questions that you might have here as well. --KyleH<staff /> (talk) 20:13, 12 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

I find it odd that you folks only talk in terms of anything being "open and transparent" when it suits your purposes. Repeatedly removing information from this site about the users having left for an independent wiki is anything but open and transparent. Mind you, I've seen worse from Wikia, like the secret backroom deals to take control of uncyclopedia.org's domain - we found out about that one in July 2006 from a who.is server. Please, if you must talk about openness and transparency, try living up to that for a change. --carlb 20:36, 12 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

OK, right. First of all, I have to say that my above comments were made when I was a bit annoyed but now I've had something to eat I feel a bit better. I have nothing against you personally and am grateful for your rapid response: you're only doing your job. It is the general frustration with some areas of Wikia as an organisation that I was trying to get across in the comments. In addition, the user in question was a little upset with his desysopping and I felt I had to fight his corner for him.

The official status of the wiki is ambiguous right now. We haven't officially 'left' Wikia yet as things are still in transition, at least this is the stance of the admins (this may or may not be contrary to any admins' blog posts). Granted, some users have taken this as an official departure and I can see why they thought this was the case - we're still deciding what to do yet.

In fact, on IRC, we have been discussing possible ideas for the future of this wiki. We are considering an experiment (if you grant us the permission to do so) in which established users different from the current admin team are promoted to sysop status to look after after the wiki here so that Wikia representatives no longer need to vet it. We do want to heavily state that the main community is located at the new wiki, but as for the fate of this wiki... well, we'll keep you posted, man. --  Hindleyak  Converse • ?blog • Click here! 21:17, 12 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

Well now that we've all calmed down, can I be as so bold to ask to be reopped. --TReich (My Bad) 22:34, 12 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

Well, I was going to but I was afraid that Kyle might block me. However, I shall fulfil your request momentarily. --  Hindleyak  Converse • ?blog • Click here! 22:43, 12 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

I apologize if I misinterpreted the site notice--it seemed pretty clear to me that you were leaving. Regardless, naturally you are welcome to do as you wish as long as it contributes positively to the wiki that remains. If, however, your goal is to drive people away from this wiki, then I ask that you simply make a clean break. If the entire community has moved on, then they should have no trouble finding the new site. --KyleH<staff /> (talk) 23:14, 12 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

Meh, it's OK - down to fundamental differences of interest, as indeed the whole move is. I resolve to discuss this with the people that care about the site, get the community's opinion on things and post some sort of official leaving message in the Wikia forum. Needless to say, we will make a clean break for it if/when we decide the time is right. When that'll be, who knows - it's all political nonsense. I must reiterate that your refusal to discuss this on IRC still irks me somewhat. Sannse was so very kind as to join me and some members of the site in a debate as to Illogic Wikia's future on the #uncyclopedia channel last night. Though tensions were running high, I actually feel like we got our point across and made our feelings heard. Here, I honestly feel like I am talking to one man and a brick wall on this skeleton of a wiki.

Once again, though, as with New Monaco, I feel you leave us completely helpless and it is another example of Wikia bureaucracy that is the very reason for our departure. I know, this is falling on deaf ears, isn't it? Yes, because, despite numerous vociferous concerns over Wikia's fundamental service, you refuse point blank to answer them. Come on, Wikia! What have you got to say for yourselves? At the very least deny your domain squatting! We are not happy bunnies, and neither are Uncyclopedia. And the rest...

Ahem. Now I have that off my chest, I thank you once again for your time. --  Hindleyak  Converse • ?blog • Click here! 12:43, 13 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry if my insistence on making all of the discussions about the future of this wiki public makes you feel like no one is listening to your point of view. I can assure you that nothing is further from the truth. Not only do I have a good idea of where you are coming from (I read your conversation with Sannse and it seemed to confirm my interpretation of everything else you have said), but I am making sure that the higher-ups hear and understand your point of view as well.

When it all comes down to it, however, I think you're right: we do seem to have fundamental differences of interest. We made some changes that are necessary to ensure that we are able to continue hosting wikis for many years to come, and you feel that those changes are not consistent with the needs of the community. As a result, much of the community is moving to a new wiki and would like to close this one; however, Wikia generally doesn't close wikis. Don't get me wrong--I understand that there is more to it, but that's what it basically boils down to.

Having said that, I am here to support whatever community chooses to remain here. Please understand that I am not here to try to make your life difficult. For the time being, I left a link to the other wiki in the site notice, I haven't made any more adjustments to the news section, and I am not doing anything to prevent you from leaving talk page messages making sure that interested community members find the new wiki. Things can't be like that forever--some time soon this wiki will need to start moving along on in its own path--but until that happens, there is nothing wrong with letting people know that there is more than one option available.

I am afraid that I don't understand the relevance of the domain name issue to the current situation (I looked at our domain list and I don't see any domains related to Illogicopedia) ... plus, it is a fairly common business practice, and it is an issue that has been discussed in-depth elsewhere where it is relevant.

So, I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. If nothing else, I hope that you understand that we do listen and consider all feedback, even if, in the end, we have to make decisions that you do not necessarily agree with. --KyleH<staff /> (talk) 20:11, 13 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for the deviation of subject with regards to the domain squatting, it's a different matter and I'll take it up at the relevant points should I feel it necessary. I know some people who are extremely annoyed by the Wikia domain buyouts, which make it very hard for them to find their feet at their new homes. Anyway, as you mentioned, it's somewhat unrelated.

I hope you can understand the annoyance you caused when you made the edit to the sitenotice and desysopping: it felt like you were abusing your powers and making edits without the consent of the community, who were still deciding what to do about this wiki. It came across as meddlesome and didn't really resonate well with a community still reeling from the whole New Monaco situation. I can see it was a misunderstanding, but a complete red mist fell over a selection of the administrators when these edits were made, hence my strong words above.

Our goal is to get this wiki closed and to (possibly) get a redirect to the new wiki. This is the general consensus amongst the administrators who, after all, have been at this wiki since the beginning, since the wiki's infant stages as the Editthis hosting, and have Illogicopedia's best interests at heart. We do not feel that having two wikis with exactly the same (or extremely similar) content is of benefit to anyone at all.

However we understand if you do wish to do that, it's your prerogative as it's on your servers and the content is licensed under the GFDL. If you indeed intend to keep this wiki open, we kindly ask you to change the site's name as we want to completely differentiate between two wikis and sever as many links as possible with Wikia Inc. (I think that's the formal name).

I would also appreciate it if you could give me some sort of help as regards to removing every one of my contribs - edits and images - from this wiki (preferably the database too), which I no longer want to remain here if you intend to keep the wiki open in the long term. If there is no formal procedure for this, I ask for your permission (due to the fact you could easily restore them) to delete all those articles which I am the sole contributor to. May I also take this opportunity to state that I am not the only user who wishes to do this.

Again I thank you for your co-operation in this matter and I hope we can reach some sort of compromise. --  Hindleyak  Converse • ?blog • Click here! 22:38, 13 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

As I said before, I'm afraid that this wiki will not be closing, nor will we be removing substantial portions of its content. When you submitted your contributions, you released them under the GNU Free Documentation license, and we are committed to continuing to offer those materials under the GFDL as long as we are able to. With regard to the name change, that is an issue that the new community that adopts this wiki can determine. Personally, I agree that some way of easily differentiating between the two wikis is in everyone's best interest.

It sounds to me, however, that you have some decisions that you need to make amongst yourselves before we talk too much more about the future of this wiki. The administrators posted messages indicating that the wiki had moved, and you indicate that the administrators wish to close this wiki; however, at the same time, you insist that the administrators have not yet decided what to do about this wiki, and may still choose to make positive contributions here.

So, I respectfully ask that you make a decision about how you want to proceed knowing that, regardless, the content of this wiki will not change substantially except through the constructive contributions of the community that remains here. We have obviously had some misunderstandings, so I think that it is best if we be as clear about our intentions as possible. --KyleH<staff /> (talk) 23:36, 13 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

The decision the community has made is that we want this wiki closed down, just not quite yet, because we've not completed the move (though it is extremely close to happening). However we understand you are highly reluctant to do that so are happy to negotiate.

As I have said, I heavily object to my content remaining on this wiki and once again ask for your permission to delete it. I will reiterate: having exactly the same content on two wikis is not beneficial to any of them and if you intend to keep this wiki open I want my edits here deleted. If you do not agree, well I am afraid this is bad form and I must warn you that there will be a large amount of bad blood. Whilst you are well within your rights to keep the content here you must understand my reasoning. Since it is my content, you ought to respect it. As I said, if not, well that just confirms my opinion that Wikia are extremely awkward and don't care about individual members of the community, not least me.

If you plan to keep this wiki open long term, please delete my contributions. Thank you. --  Hindleyak  Converse • ?blog • Click here! 16:44, 14 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

Some ideas:

• After the moving, renaming the wiki. I think the Illogicopedia name belongs to the leaving community. May be it would be called wackypedia. What do you think?
• Deleting of articles that were intrinsically related to the leaving community (i.e. in-joke articles, articles about illogicopedia itself, etc)

Golden Eagle 15:28, 13 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

If any of the community did not feel comfortable with the move, they would have probably spoken up. The two communities are not separate; this is not intended to be a fork. If there is anyone who was here before the move and plans to stay here, I would tell them that in doing so they are moving apart from the community. The high, high, HIGH majority of active users have already switched to illogicopedia.org and completely stopped contributing here. Some WHAT!? (number two) (talk) (contribs) (edit count) 00:12, 14 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your actions of 23:25-23:30 (UTC), if you call a week, maybe a fortnight at most, long enough on any timescale, you need to find a job where a week is a good timescale, because in the real world, it doesn't work like that, you started this game of bureaucratic chess, now play by the rules. Ever loving Silent Penguin 00:00, 21 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

I personally don't believe that it would hurt to have a permanent link to the new site, I mean, the all wise and caring wikia surely wouldn't want to confuse users by failing to specify where all they're co-users have gone, would they? TReich (My Bad) 22:46, 21 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

"People have had time to find the new site"

The thing is that they haven't. Our community has moved permanently, and you're deliberately trying to keep that information from any innocent new writers who might start writing here and find themselves stradned in an empty website. Refusing to delete this website is understandable. I realize that wikia has a firm policy of not deleting wikis. But to remove the site-notice like that and declare that, after a week, everyone on the internet has had “enough” time to soak in the move is sort of abusing your authority, eh? Feel free to ignore my complaint as you have ignored the other thousands on this talk page.

Honestly. We've moved. Please put the link back. --THE 02:30, 22 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

I apologize if it seems like I'm not listening. I assure you that I am. The only reason that I haven't responded in the past few days is because I believe that have addressed most of these issues in my earlier posts. It seems, however, that we still don't completely understand each other. To put it simply: this wiki is independent any other wiki that may exist. If you are leaving this wiki, then you are no longer part of the community here and therefore no longer have a say in how this wiki is run. As I said before, you are welcome to continue being a part of the community here, but only if your contributions support this wiki. I left the site notice and the mangled homepage up before as a courtesy, but it is now time for this wiki to move on. --KyleH<staff /> (talk) 04:00, 22 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

You say this site is now independent from every other site on the web. However, at the moment, is it really? After all, it still bears the name 'Illogicopedia' (hmm, sounds similar to another wiki I saw this week somewhere) and houses contributions created by us, the Illogicopedia community. So, in my mind we have every right to continue to have a say in what goes on here for as long as our content is held on your servers.

Also, your previous post gave me a sense of satisfaction in knowing I was right when I mentioned Wikia only looking after themselves. I mean, why the diddly squat should you care about us? We've left now and as far as you're concerned, we don't really matter. I can fully understand that, you being a profit-making business and all, but it doesn't really come across as, shall we say, entirely courteous. --  Hindleyak  Converse • ?blog • Click here! 12:29, 22 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

"If you are leaving this wiki, then you are no longer part of the community here" -- en.illogicopedia.org is not a different community. It's the same community on a different URL. It's Illogicopedia. Every single page, and every single page's entire edit history, have been moved there. All the users have moved over. By switching to the other URL, we are not "leaving the community" -- we ARE the community, and we are leaving. If a bunch of new editors want to stay here, be it on their own heads. If they edit here because they don't know about the new URL, then that's a problem, which is why we need that site notice up.

"and therefore no longer have a say in how this wiki is run" -- As per above, this is our site. Hindleyite is one of the founders of this site, so don't tell him he doesn't have a say here. As for Testostereich, the user you removed admin status from, he is the only user even close to Hindleyite's number of edits. We are not "forking off." We're trying to have a full-scale move. The admins are trying to complete this move, but because you removed the site notice about the move, there are still IPs editing here.

If anyone, whether user or not, knows about the new URL and has a reason for staying here, I encourage them to comment on this talk page and explain. I strongly doubt that anyone would have any reason to stay here, and if they did, they would ignore the site notice and keep editing. If they just didn't know the other URL existed, then they would read the site notice and move onto the new site. I see no purpose in removing the site notice. I see no purpose in trying to keep this wiki functioning. Every time a user edits here, an admin goes to their talk page and says, "Hello, we've moved over to a new URL," and then the user says, "Okay," and goes to the new site.

To sum up: We need that site notice. This wiki is NOT independent from all other sites on the web. If this was a separate wiki, it would be a pointless one indeed -- why create two versions of the same site? I would like an admin to please put the site notice back up; if you, KyleH, still feel that it should be removed, then please explain why you would not like people to know that the other site exists. Some WHAT!? (number two) (talk) (contribs) (edit count) 20:32, 22 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with some what. We founded this site. We still have a say here because it is the site we created, and now we have completely moved it to a new location and want to inform our readers and users that we have done so. If wikia has ordered you to censor all references to the new site, Kyleh, then I must say that's a depressingly orwellian move that's gonna piss off our community completely. If it's a decision you made yourself, I must ask you to reconsider your refusal to let us put the sitenotice up. the site notice does not harm the community. YOU and wikia harm the community by banning our users, desysopping our admins, and disrupting our community's attempt at a peaceful relocation. Please explain your behaviour. --THE 22:45, 22 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

Hey KyleH, cut the wikia crap, you and we both know that you are simply here just to get wikia as much advertising space as possible by any means possible, now, talk in frank terms or dont bother dancing around the point.--Silent Penguin 22:48, 22 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

Cyber Bullying

I was passing, and had a brief look through recent changes. Doushbag of the Year has been created. This is clear and obvious cyber bullying. It uses the names of several children who I assume are real people. I have blanked the page, but the article needs to be deleted, and the creator banned. This article has been sitting on this wiki now for almost 2 days now. I did not check all of the changes which have been made recently, but I assume that similar edits may have been made elsewhere in the wiki. Thanks. MrN9000 03:29, 27 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

This is the creator --Elassint 04:09, 27 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)

This shows who's really editing, doesn't it? Some WHAT!? (number two) (talk) (contribs) (edit count) 13:39, 27 Novelniver 2008 (UTC)